Gary Yam 15/01/2012 11:40:52

What was the attendance last week? It looked to me like there were two full tables and one overflowing one.

If this is going to keep up, I think serious consideration should be given to a fourth RPG table, at least in the short term.

Alex Dickinson (16/01/2012 22:53:36)

A great turnout yes, but given the variability & unpredictability of RPGer numbers surely a little too early to get excited; only a month or two ago we were struggling to fill a 3rd table. The current mix of games may be a factor: some players only do D&D, some are much more likely to show when it's 4e, and others aren't interested in D&D at all. So with a 3.5/Pathfinder, a 4e, and a not-DnD we probably have the optimum mix for attracting numbers.

Gary Yam (17/01/2012 10:46:51)

I don't think its a question of "getting overexcited". Personally, I think the RPGs are more or less unplayable in groups larger than 4 players when the club fills up like that. It's noiser and more disruptive than a con. I was struggling to hear my players on a four person table. There's nothing "great" about a lot of people turning up with no games to play in, or games that are over subscribed.

We're also not at that place where we can start having fanciful notions of an "optimum mix" of games. The way the system works is that the GMs offer up the games that they want to run, and the players either sign up or they don't. 

Absolutely, the problem is one of inconsistency, but we were trying to solve that with the booking system on the site....

Incidentally, has ANYONE spoken to the new players about the club site, the booking system etc? I see new faces, but no new names or users. This is where it breaks down in the real world.

David King (17/01/2012 13:16:02)

Yes, whenever I meet a new RPGer I always give them the whole lecture on how we arrange, schedule and run games, and how to sign up to them. While I am willing to be accomodating, after that it's up to them as to whether they want a guaranteed slot in one of my games.

I for one would like to see how many regulars come out of the new faces before pushing for anything like a 4th table. That said (and while there is no rush), as of posting this we only have two games scheduled for the next block.

Gary Yam (17/01/2012 16:13:27)

Clearly the ideal would be a situation where these things just happen organically - players just go ahead and do it. If there are clearly too many players, they agree  on the night to open up another table, it appears on the site and at the next Thursday the game runs.

Nick Hughes (17/01/2012 20:44:08)

Once people start to realise that just showing up won't guarantee them a place in an RPG, then we should see more people signing up in advance.

It would be good to find out a bit more about our gaming demographic:  Are they travelling a long way to get to FGC or not?  What games are they into?  Can they GM?  Do they like to use the club forums or not?  And letting them know that signing up in advance is the only way to guarantee a place in the game and that we expect people to notify the GMs if they can't show up out of courtesy to the rest of the group.

Like Alex and Dave said, let's see if the attendance can sustain itself in the weeks to come.

Gary Yam (17/01/2012 21:02:23)

Quite. If we plan for a 4th table, the attendance will probably fall away by the time we get it planned.

The point is to fight the fires, not install smoke alarms. As soon as the club starts to get crowded, that's when the extra games should start up, otherwise all we are doing is having games spoilt in the short term from overcrowding, and then long-term planning for games that no-one will show up to.

Nick's right. We don't know anything about the players - and frankly I don't think anyone is really interested, either. There's nowhere to store any of this information, and no willingness to have any higher level of organisation.

I think the key would be to let people know where they stand earlier, and make it clear that the GMing is open to anyone at any time, the Showcase nights notwithstanding.

Nick Hughes (17/01/2012 21:43:04)

Let's not make things too complicated:  We don't need databases but a conversation with a newcomer will generally ascertain the information needed.  People coming in from a long way, those who have tricky work schedules:  You know they're short termers.  The thing about the 4th table is that it's difficult to plan for it:  We have a calender and what gets run depends on the availability of GMs and what is ready to go.  We have no maximum on the number of games run...we started with 2, we've moved to 3 but no one has ever said you can't run more. 

Games all full?  Dare I suggest that people who can't get into an RPG should try other games at the club until space becomes available.  You're usually talking only a 2-3 week wait anyway and if people are keen to come to FGC as a long term thing they won't mind.  It's a pretty friendly club as game clubs go.

Gary Yam (17/01/2012 21:47:41)

I'm not suggesting complicating anything. I'm pointing out that it will never happen.

What I'm asking is - instead of waiting for a game, why not just start another one ad hoc?

Alex Dickinson (18/01/2012 02:36:43)

= further reasons to try my suggestion of a 'questionnaire'? Could have a 'keep it' top half detailing the informal rules to facilitate club play (table limits, checking website, signing up etc.) and a 'please fill in and return' bottom half to ascertain people's website-viewing habits, distance traveled, name, contact details etc. Could give to all players annually and to new arrivals on their first visit, for them to hand back on their 2nd if their 1st hasn't scared them off.

Gary Yam (18/01/2012 18:08:46)

Alex D:

A 2-part questionnaire? I think that (as described) in theory that's a great idea.

Without getting all political about it, my fear would be that the only way to decide that kind of thing would be via an EGM. There are no serial role-players on the committee now that Phil has gone, and no-one can seriously believe that there is any appetite for talking about this kind of thing at the AGMs.

There are also some who feel that the club should be very unitary, and having separate organisation for the benefit of only the RPGers is divisive. I think there's some truth in that.

Again, this comes down to responsibility and organisation. Who would write these questionnaires, and where would they be stored? Who would be responsible for them? Sometimes, you'd think asking someone simply to run a game is like asking for their first-born son, so asking someone to do an administrative task would be like asking for volunteers to be a prison bitch.

The club officers are generally all boardgamers who do a lot of work in their current roles, and to ask them to do something like that which is an organisational matter for the benefit of the RPGers is a bit rich. And by definition, RPGers are the flakiest and least responsible people. I don't want to be overtly negative, but my guess would be that any attempt to seriously discuss this would be met by a combination of overwhelming antipathy and a barrage of excuses.

Jon Burfoot (18/01/2012 21:27:08)

 

A 2-part questionnaire? I think that (as described) in theory that's a great idea.

Without getting all political about it, my fear would be that the only way to decide that kind of thing would be via an EGM. There are no serial role-players on the committee now that Phil has gone, and no-one can seriously believe that there is any appetite for talking about this kind of thing at the AGMs.

I agree with the first sentence. I disagree with the second, however. If there is enough will from the club membership (and it only takes one person to raise the issue at the AGM, to bring it to discussion) then there would be enough appetite to talk about this, given the debate on here, thus far. 

There are also some who feel that the club should be very unitary, and having separate organisation for the benefit of only the RPGers is divisive. I think there's some truth in that.

I can't say I've heard any of this. It would be divisive and against the general principles of the club to promote gaming of ALL sorts, be it boardgames, RPGs, CCGs or whatever else.

Again, this comes down to responsibility and organisation. Who would write these questionnaires, and where would they be stored? Who would be responsible for them? Sometimes, you'd think asking someone simply to run a game is like asking for their first-born son, so asking someone to do an administrative task would be like asking for volunteers to be a prison bitch.

I'd suggest that who writes it would be a subject for the commitee to discuss, if it was voted on and approved (at the AGM)/discussed in commitee, to be added to the current membership form.

The club officers are generally all boardgamers who do a lot of work in their current roles, and to ask them to do something like that which is an organisational matter for the benefit of the RPGers is a bit rich.

Why? They are the commitee for the club, not just for the boardgaming members of FGC.

And by definition, RPGers are the flakiest and least responsible people. I don't want to be overtly negative, but my guess would be that any attempt to seriously discuss this would be met by a combination of overwhelming antipathy and a barrage of excuses.

You may not want to be negative, but you being exactly that. All I can see is you saying why it cannot and will not be done. The commitee members are responsible, that is why they have gone onto the commitee. Or at least that's how I felt when I did my three years or so, as a member. It is my experience that anything that is for the benefit of the club is normally met by sensible discussion (admittedly with some silly banter, too) and is examined quite closely.

Alex Dickinson (18/01/2012 22:35:17)

Rather than discuss it wouldn't it be better to just do it? One RPGer write a first draft, pass it to a couple of others for additions/changes, then pass it to committee to have them make sure it represents the club as a whole rather than just the RPGers, or sit on it or veto it as they wish? I wouldn't have thought it was a big enough deal to require discussion at an AGM. We're not talking about new rules, we're talking about informing people of the (informal) rules we already play by - just in writing rather than verbally. Plus asking them a few optional questions they are under no obligation to respond to.

Jon Burfoot (18/01/2012 22:55:53)

As it is going onto 'official' FGC paperwork (ie membership forms) that is something that would need to be discussed, I would have thought. If not at the AGM, then brought to the commitee to okay it. :-)

Nic Antoniou (18/01/2012 23:43:30)

so r we the peoples front of judea or the popular peoples front?

Graham Charlton (19/01/2012 09:18:39)

I think you're all massively overcomplicating things. Not everything that happens at club has to go through an AGM/EGM - you've elected a committee so that the club doesn't have to waste everybody's time every time a decision needs to be made. Only changes that are fundamental to the running of the club would require an EGM. Anything that we do during the course of the preceeding 12 months is then discussed at the AGM and if people aren't happy we change things. If people were ever really really unhappy then you execute the Chairman.

 

Someone who's close to what needs to be known should write the questionaire. Pass it to me (as club secretary) when it's done and I'll run it past the other members of the committee. If we're happy, we'll add it to the stuff we give people when they join the club. Up the the individual if they fill it in of course.

Bjorn Christianson (19/01/2012 10:12:00)

I'm not really clear why we need a questionnaire as opposed to simply an information hand-out.  The first part of the sheet Alex described, with start times, the website address, fees, the sign-up policy and what to do if you don't have web access, etc sounds like a great idea to have around and give to first-time attendees.  But a) I don't really see what we'd get out of a questionnaire, b) it seems a bit on the intrusive and overly-bureaucratic side, and c) at some point we'd start having issues with data retention directives and the like.  

Nick Hughes (19/01/2012 20:06:30)

Like I said before, let's not overcomplicate something that individuals, notably Dave King, have done off their own bat.

You can approach the committee any club evening, you can also ask to put forward a proposal to the Committee throughout the year without having to gather the entire membership to vote on it.  The fact that the Committee is made up of mostly boardgamers is mainly because most, if not all, of the role-players haven't stood for election in the last couple of years.  It was not always thus:  The club has even been run by mostly role-players at times in the club's history and for a long time it was a mixture of all the different sides of the hobby.

Gary, I think you're theorising as to what could go wrong and then assuming it will go wrong.  There's talk about a questionnaire but if it is agreed to have one, then you take it from there, assign or find a volunteer to compile the questions and then if/when that happens we take it from there.  My guess is that we don't need one:  We just need to talk to newcomers about what they game, how far do they travel in and what they're looking for in the club.  Also, it's up to all of us to let them know about the forum, the website, the signing up policy and so forth.

Toast Crumbs (20/01/2012 13:53:54)

Yes, whenever I meet a new RPGer I always give them the whole lecture on how we arrange, schedule and run games, and how to sign up to them. While I am willing to be accomodating, after that it's up to them as to whether they want a guaranteed slot in one of my games.

I for one would like to see how many regulars come out of the new faces before pushing for anything like a 4th table. That said (and while there is no rush), as of posting this we only have two games scheduled for the next block.

I've been going to the club on-and-off for 18 months, but never had this chat :-(

Could it be because I play ALL games, not just RPGs, and played board-games the first few times I came.

Would someone be free to give me the low-down?

Thanks,

Mark

Gary Yam (20/01/2012 19:46:25)

.Ok, with all this positive energy and all the good ideas, it's clear that everyone knows exactly what to do and how to go about it. I expect that things will be running like a treat.

Seriously. If what you are all saying is correct, then there are no barriers or impediments and things should run smoothly with actually very little organisation or effort.

Gary Yam (20/01/2012 19:59:26)

Toast Crumbs:

I have been at the club for give or take 3 years, and I have never had this chat, either. The only thing I have been told directly is how much membership costs, and how the window-of-opportunity bar system works. Everything else I have gleaned from guesswork, and other people's references to events in the club's history. Basically, there are hardly any rules and everyone makes it all up as they go along.

As far as I understand, the only real no-no is dealing in CCGs; although I'm sure that's fallen by the wayside as it's all rather demode now.

Jon Burfoot (20/01/2012 21:11:54)

 

Ok, with all this positive energy and all the good ideas, it's clear that everyone knows exactly what to do and how to go about it. I expect that things will be running like a treat.

Seriously. If what you are all saying is correct, then there are no barriers or impediments and things should run smoothly with actually very little organisation or effort.

To be honest, if someone has an idea, and it goes to the commitee, it's their job to discuss it and come back with whether they think it is a good idea, or not. Once the green light is given, it can be done. 

So there are no impediments, once it's been voted on by the commitee....and then there is a little organistational effort to be made for the new idea to be implemented.

Gary Yam (21/01/2012 11:07:49)

On the immediate (althoug tangential) point, I confidently predict that absolutely nothing will happen in terms of notes/questionnaires/flyers/information etc. It's a lot easier to say how easy things are, than it is to actually do them.

 

On the original subject, the point has been missed, and the discussion gone wildly off topic. What I actually said was simply this: 

There are a lot of people. Someone should start a 4th table. Attendance on the 19th pretty much bears this out.

Ian Pearson (21/01/2012 11:18:09)

OK Guys, time for an official comment I think.

The FGC committee exits for the whole club and under no circumstances do we ‘play favourites’. This is an anathema to the whole concept of the FGC which has inclusivity as part of it’s core raison  d’être.

If there is a problem then the committee should hear about it as soon as possible. We are the ones who will consider it, work out a solution ( with funds if needed), discus it with the people concerned and if it is serious enough put it to the whole FGC at an EGM or the AGM.

In case you haven’t noticed, I do try and get round the club to see what everyone is doing, and I hope I’m approachable when I do :0)

One thing I will say though, proposals to the committee , as distinct from issues, will need to be reasonably robust and thought out and probably best presented in person.

We have not had a serious meeting for a while, so why not make us earn our ‘pay’.

As a reminder, the AGM is not that far away, so if anyone wants to put an item on the agenda all they have to do is pass it on to anyone on the committee.

We have the constitution listed on-line now, but AGM debates should go something like this.

The agenda item is announced.

If anyone wants to speak for the item, then they do so.

If anyone want to speak against the item, they do so now.

Then a general discussion is held, moderated by the Chair.

In most cases the discussion is a fairly free affair, but if a lot of people want to speak or feelings are strong, then the Chair will adopt a ‘one at a time policy’, where a person indicates their wish to add to the debate by raising their hand and the Chair will , in order, ask that person to speak.

At some point, the Chair will call for a vote.

It is strictly one person one vote  - I know who the offenders are ;0)

You can vote for, or against the item, or abstain.

For constitutional changes a 2/3 majority is required. All other votes are decided on a simple majority

Any questions ?

Finally, as a general point of information, I believe EVERY member of the current committee has role played at the club at some point.

Nick Hughes (25/01/2012 08:49:17)

4th RPG table.  It needs someone to have a game ready to go at a moment's notice, a game that will hopefully appeal to a group of noobs and those without a game for the evening and that the GM won't mind being the "back up GM" for the night and forefeit their place in their regular game.

If anyone doesn't mind being this person, then go ahead, but I feel it's a bit much to ask of one or two people.  Otherwise it would be simpler if we let things run their course, invite newcomers to play in another kind of game for 1 or 2 evenings and then direct them to the calender and sign up sections of the website.  If people are going to get picky about not being able to walk right into their favourite RPG and they don't come back then it's their loss.

As for club rules, FGC have never been a rules heavy club.  I think most of the membership like it that way.  If we need a comprehensive set of rules to run the club then go ahead, come up with them, put them to the Committee or wait for the AGM and then put them forward.

Ben Gander (25/01/2012 18:35:26)

 Finally, as a general point of information, I believe EVERY member of the current committee has role played at the club at some point.

I'm trying to think if I have - I don't think so unless it was in a one-night thing. Roleplayed in other situations though and know how it all works with the website, slots, etc.

 

I'd agree that newcomers may not know how RPG sign-ups work and that a flyer with details could be a plan - try and stop anyone slipping through the net. Perhaps link the details permenantly to the website front page ("click here for RPG signups" or similar)? I can barely keep track of who's new or not at the club at the moment as member turnover appears to be particularly high at the mo so making it as obvious as possible makes sense.

 

I'd also suggest that at least one roleplayer (possibly more) needs to step up to the plate and join the committee at the AGM, although little in this discussion (bar a questionnaire) would need to go through them as far as I can see.

Nick Hughes (25/01/2012 20:25:30)

Signing up forms, table limits, calenders, booking slots, questionnaires, rules on how to run things...this stuff is all new:  For 2 decades now the FGC didn't have them or have a need for them.  I say cut a little slack with people at the club...if it looks like we're throwing ideas out there, no one stepping up to co-ordinate things and not sure which way to proceed then it's because people are trying to come up with rules and systems of operation on the fly where none existed before.

If the attendance keeps up the high levels of recent weeks, then a 4th game a week becomes viable but as well as hoping that newcomers discover the forums and online calender, we should really take the time either at the beginning of the evening or the end to have a chat to other gamers about what is coming up and if there are any spaces or not. 

My opinion about role-players being on the committee:  The committee should be made up from people who want to do the job, regardless of their gaming preference.